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Certainly not always the case but some people have a greater difficulty getting over
當然了，情況也不總是這樣有些人和自己所受到的迫害相比更難忘記他們所犯下的罪行
the experience that they perpetrated rather than what,
更難忘記的是他們所犯下的罪行
what they were on the receiving end of and the The Taxi to The Darkside showed
他們所犯下的罪行在紀錄片《駛向陰霾的出租車》表明
a number of the military that were over there.
很多軍人都是這樣的
The lack of volition is its key issue, I mean it's not that it's their choice to do it, they were instructed Yeah these are the techniques you are to apply.
缺少意愿是關鍵問題我的意思是他們不是自愿選擇這么做的他們是受人指揮的.是這些是你必須要使用的審訊技巧
Yeah that too. Yeah and the system certainly does not back them up
是的，是的系統當然不會支持他們
they're hung out to dry where the higher level remain sacrosanct. Yeah.
他們在外游蕩，任其枯萎而更高一層仍是神圣而不可侵犯的，是的
Hi, Claudia Cotton, I was at a torture conference at Fulton California a year ago at which there were two survivors a man and a woman,
你好，我是克勞迪婭?科頓1年前，我在加利福尼亞富爾頓參加了一次關于酷刑的會議，當時有兩個幸存者一位男士，一位女士
a woman counselled um, torturers ,former torturers the man did street theatre.
女士曾為施暴者，前施暴者做過咨詢師男士是做街頭表演的
One of the things he told us was that he was from South America,
男士告訴我們一件事他來自南非
many people who are the hands on torturers are themselves the survivors of torture and
那里有很多人既是施虐者也是酷刑的幸存者
that's how they learned how to do it.
這就是他們生存的方式
Have you encountered that in your work?
在你的工作過程中，曾經碰到過這種情況嗎
We have chosen at the Kovler Center not to address the people who do the, um.
我們中心已經選擇不去關注那些對別人施虐的人
Even if they are survivors also?
即使他們本身也是酷刑的幸存者?
The trouble would be that if they are people who have been torturers,
問題就是如果他們是施虐者
and they are coming to Kovler, that can create conditions that are less safe
那么他們來到中心就可能會給幸存者產生
for the survivors and unfortunately there's so much need that people who have,
不安全的環境，不幸的是有很多人已經來到我們這兒
who have approached there and have said I have done torture and
他們來到這里說自己曾經虐待過別人
I am troubled by it and I need treatment for it are referred elsewhere.
自己現在受其困擾，需要治療我們會介紹他們去別的中心
they don't receive services but another example that I think is parallel is that
我們不會提供服務我能想到另一個相似的例子就是
