We didn't know that Leonardo worked on vellum.
我們之前不知道達芬奇有用皮紙來畫過畫
But once I'd started looking at Leonardo and vellum,
但當我開始看達芬奇和皮紙的聯系時...
which is basically parchment.
皮紙一般都是羊皮紙
It's from a calf or kid, in this case or a sheep.
它是用小?;蛘咝∩窖虻钠ぷ龀傻?這一塊是用綿羊皮
It's animal skin.
它是用動物的皮做的
We've got no drawings about Leonardo on vellum on animal skin.
我們以前沒有發現達芬奇用皮紙畫的畫
But once you start looking at Leonardo
但當你研究達芬奇的資料時
you can find references in his interest to this
你可以發現他表達過用這種皮紙
as a medium so that becomes important.
作畫紙的興趣,所以這個材質很重要
And all these things add up
這些證據都說得過去
so there's no point at which you say that is absolutely it.
所以沒有哪個證據可能讓你絕對肯定的
Interviewer: I think the point about it being vellum
我覺得關于皮紙這點
is really interesting.
很有趣
And I wondered if because there's no other works that
我想知道,因為我們沒見過達芬奇
we know of which Leonardo worked on vellum,it made a difference
用皮紙畫的畫,這會不會影響了
in terms of attribution according to technique?
我們根據畫法來鑒定的確定性
Whether he's using a different technique here
他在這里是不是因為畫紙的原因
because of the material,or if that made harder?
用了不同的畫法,還是這反而使它更難鑒定了?
Your initial reaction,a
你的第一個反應
you see a drawing on ink coloured chalks,
當你看到一幅用彩色粉筆畫的畫
but also ink washes on vellum,
還在皮紙上看到水墨
the initial reaction of course is Leonardo didn't do that.
第一個反應當然是這不是達芬奇畫的
It's one reason why it's probably not a forgery,
這也是說明它不是贗品的原因之一
because a forger wouldn't take something that has got that obstacle.
因為贗造者不會贗造有這么大一個障礙的畫
So I then started looking at the evidence of drawings
然后我開始研究用彩色粉筆畫的畫
in coloured chalk.
的證據
And Leonardo picked it up from a French artist
達芬奇從一個法國畫家那里學來的
who used it in a very sober way
那個人用得比較少
and developed it to a very high level.
達芬奇研究出了很高的使用技巧
And his pupils,people like Boltraffio,Luini,
他的學生,例如Boltraffio和盧伊尼
all start using coloured chalks.
都開始用染色粉筆來畫
The Isabella D'este drawing by Leonardo
達芬奇畫的伊莎貝拉·德埃斯特
in the Louvre is partly coloured in chalk.
有一部分就是用粉筆上色的
But I also found a rather famous Leonardo document
我還找到一個很著名的達芬奇文獻
which is called Linyi Memorandum.
叫Linyi備忘錄
Which was a draft of a Memorandum partly in a sort of code
這是一個部分用代碼寫成的備忘錄草稿
to a French Count Linyi who was with the French Kings
寫給一個法國伯爵Linyi 他是法國國王的重臣
he was leader of French forces in 1494 and again in 1499.
在1494年和1499時,他是法國軍隊的領導
And there's this Linyi Memorandum
我們有這個Linyi備忘錄的文獻
and there's a very puzzling bit in it which says
里面有一點內容很讓人困惑
"Get from Jean de Paris "
從巴黎Jean那里找來了
the method of dry colouring."
干法染色的方法"
And he talks about Jean's box of colours.
他說到Jean的顏料盒
And he talks about
然后他講到
how could we get many sheets, singles and doubles.
怎么去找很多紙,單層的和雙層的
And once you're thinking about vellum
一旦你想到皮紙
and coloured chalks on vellum all of this falls into place.
和在皮紙上用染色粉筆畫,這些內容都說得通了
Jean Perreal was the court artist to Charles VIII
Jean Perreal當時是查理八世的宮廷畫師
and later Louis XII was in Milan with the French invaders.
后來當了路易十二的畫師,并隨著法國入侵者去了米蘭
Leonardo met Jean,there are a number of references,
達芬奇見了Jean 這有幾個文獻記載
Jean was an engineer and one of these all round people
Jean是一個工程師,也是那種全才
like Leonardo though to a slightly lesser level.
就像達芬奇那樣,不過沒他那么厲害