M: But I was talking about pupils from state schools going to the so-called elite universities. That didn't go up during your time.
男：但是我說的是去讀所謂名牌大學的公立學校的學生，在反對黨當政的那幾年時間里沒有增多。
W: The number from the state schools who are going to leading universities has increased over the years. But there's still an issue about ensuring the pupils from our state schools apply to going to the universities. And if you look at the Oxford figures, for example, you see that the percentage of students applying to Oxford from the state schools is about one percent, whereas from the private schools it's over 4.5 percent, so that you know that's the problem. It's expectations in the state system that have been driven down by this government over the years.
女：這些年來，公立學校去讀一流大學的人數有所增加。但是，如何確保公立學校的學生申請上大學仍然是個問題。如果你看看牛津大學的數據，你會發現公立學校學生申請牛津大學的比例大約是1%，而私立學校的比例則超過4.5%，所以你知道這就是問題所在。那就是當今政府多年來一直在壓低公立教育系統中的期望。
M: But again you had the opportunity to do that as well. I mean to get more children from state schools into those leading universities and it didn't happen.
男：但是你們的政府也有機會這么做。我的意思是讓更多的公立學校學生進入那些一流大學，但你們的政府并沒有這樣做。
W: We have been getting more children from state schools into the leading universities and the universities have been working very hard at doing that. But I think there's going to be a real problem in the short term as a result of what the present government has been doing, because they have been giving a message that there are barriers there. And we've seen it today. There are reports already that Cambridge have been finding state school pupils ringing up and saying that they are not going to bother to apply now. That's the real damage the government has been doing. Far from opening opportunities, they are actually closing down opportunities.
女：我們一直在努力增加公立學校上一流大學的學生人數，而各個大學也一直在努力做到這一點。但我認為，由于當今政府的做法，短期內將會出現一個真正的問題，因為目前政府一直在傳遞這樣一個信息，那就是公立學校升學存在著障礙。現在我們也看到了。有報道稱，劍橋大學(Cambridge)已經發現公立學校的學生們打電話來，說他們現在不打算去申請了。這就是政府一直在做的事情。他們非但沒有開放機會之門，反而在關閉這道大門。
M: Well, they'd argue with that of course. And what they would say is "one of the things we want to do is improve the standard of our schools". Now one of the ways they want to do it is to give the schools the opportunity to run themselves more completely than they are doing at the moment. To give schools more powers, exactly the same as you. You made a speech last night laying out the way you see the education system changing in this country. I see no difference here at all between you and them.
男：嗯，他們當然也不會同意這一點。他們會說，“我們就是想提高學校的標準。”現在他們提高學校標準的一個方式就是讓學校有機會更全面地管理自身事務。給學校更多的權力，和你們的主張完全一樣。你昨晚做了一個演講，闡述了你如何看待這個國家教育體制的變化。我看你和他們之間沒有什么不同。
W: There's a very great deal of difference actually. The present government talks about freedom for schools. It talks about getting money into schools. But if you look in the detail of what they are proposing, the reality is very different. We genuinely want to make schools free and give them the freedom to have all of the money to spend on what is going on in their schools.
女：實際上有很大的區別。現在的政府談論學校的自由。它說要把錢投入學校。但如果你仔細觀察他們的建議，情況就大不相同了。我們真誠地希望讓學校自由，讓他們有足夠的自由，把所有的錢都花在學校里的事情上。
M: All of it?
W: Well, the government say in the future 85 pence in the pound will go to the schools. I want to make sure that every pound spent on schools is a pound spent in schools. I think schools should have the money and have the power to decide how to spend it because they know best what's in the interest of their pupils.
女：嗯，當今政府說未來每英鎊將有85便士是給學校的。我們想確保花在教育上的每一英鎊都花在學校的事務上。我認為學校應該掌握資金，有權力決定如何使用，因為他們最了解學生的利益所在。
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