評論
打印
That’s super interesting. What about primates? Do we have any research on how they engage with scary stuff?
太有趣了。那靈長類動物呢？我們有沒有研究過他們是如何接觸恐怖事物的？
Yeah, so there’s actually a pretty old observation of what I would consider morbid curiosity in primates.
有，其實有一個很古老的觀察，我認為這是靈長類動物的病態(tài)好奇心。
But (Charles) Darwin talks about it. He talks about hearing of this story where a man had a (box) with ... snake(s)..., live snake(s) in it, which obviously is a threat to most primates.
但達爾文談到了這一點。他說他聽過這樣一個故事，一個男人有一個盒子，里面裝著……蛇…這對大多數(shù)靈長類動物來說顯然是一種威脅。
He was in a zoo, and he would kind of set the bag down, and the primates would come up one by one and peek inside the bag, shriek, run about.
他在動物園里把袋子放下，靈長類動物會一個接一個地過來偷看袋子里的東西，尖叫著，跑來跑去。
But instead of the other primates running away, they would come up and do the same thing.
但其他靈長類動物不會逃跑，它們也會湊過來看袋子里有啥。
It’s kind of like the “Here’s this scary thing; you have to see this,” right? Yeah.
就跟“有個可怕的東西；你得看看”是一樣的，對吧？嗯。
I mean, I don’t know if they were enjoying it, right? That’s always hard to say.
我并不知道它們是否喜歡這樣。這不好判斷。
But they were certainly engaging in that behavior intentionally, knowing that it was something that scared one of the troop members.
但他們肯定是故意這么做的，因為它們明知道這會嚇到其中一名隊員。
And Darwin actually replicated this experiment because he was so intrigued by it.
其實達爾文復制了這個實驗，他對這個很感興趣。
So, I mean, there’s some evidence there.
所以是存在一些證據(jù)的。
There’s some more modern evidence, I think with vervet monkeys, that they do this as well; they inspect predators rather than just always running away.
還有一些現(xiàn)代證據(jù)，是關(guān)于長尾猴的，它們也會這樣做；它們會觀察捕食者，而不是一味地逃跑。
There’s, of course, some evidence in, I think, chimpanzees and, and maybe gorillas, too, that if there’s a dead conspecific somewhere, they will actually kind of go and poke it and prod at it, and, and there’s kind of an intrigue or a curiosity there about what it is or what happened.
當然，在黑猩猩和大猩猩身上也有一些證據(jù)，如果在某個地方有個同類死掉了，它們會去戳它，懟它，這說明它們很好奇到底發(fā)生了什么。
Mm, so I know you have done some work on the idea of scary play. Could you tell me more about what that is and what benefit it has for us?
我知道你對恐怖游戲這個概念做了一些研究。你能多跟我們講講它是什么，以及它對我們有什么好處嗎？
Yeah, so scary play is, I think, just an extension of morbid curiosity, right?
嗯，我認為，恐怖游戲只是病態(tài)好奇心的延伸，對吧？
It’s when you take something scary or dangerous or gross or potentially threatening and you put it in a playful context so that you can better understand it and sort of enjoy that experience, as opposed to just tolerate that experience.
當你把一些可怕的、危險的、惡心的或有潛在威脅的東西放在一個有趣的環(huán)境中，方便你更好地理解它，并享受這種經(jīng)歷，而不僅僅是忍受這種經(jīng)歷。
So like those monkeys, for example, peering inside of a bag with a snake in it, I would—you know, that’s something very close to scary play because they kept going back and doing it and seemed to, you know, be afraid while also intrigued and thrilled.
就像那些猴子，去看裝有蛇的袋子，我覺得這跟恐怖游戲很像，因為它們一直重復去看，既害怕，又好奇、興奮。
But of course, you know, no species engages in scary play quite like humans do, and that’s because we have storytelling, right?
當然，沒有一個物種像人類一樣喜歡玩恐怖游戲，那是因為我們有講故事的能力，對吧？
Basically, we can create fictional scenarios where we’re not actually in any danger.
我們可以創(chuàng)造虛構(gòu)的場景，但實際上不會有任何危險。
So we’re not peeking inside of a bag with a real snake in it; we’re watching someone else do that on a screen, right, or in a book, when they’re—we’re imagining the scenario or listening to a story of someone who did that.
所以我們不是在窺視一個裝著真蛇的袋子；我們是在屏幕上看著別人這么做，對吧，或者在書里--看書的時候想象場景或者聽別人講故事的時候。
And so what we can do then is we can take, you know, almost a numerous number of scenarios where there’s something threatening happening, and we can tweak it and play with it and, and make it in this very specific format or this very specific storyline, and we can kind of play with that.
所以我們能做的就是去選擇，有很多不同的場景，里面有威脅性的事情發(fā)生，我們可以調(diào)整它，去玩它，讓它成為一種非常固定、非常具體的格式，在里面游玩。
We can act it out through theater or through games like tag or hide-and-seek, which are pretty basic predator-prey interactions, right?
我們可以通過戲劇或捉迷藏之類的游戲把它演出來，這些都是很基本的捕食者-獵物之間的互動，對吧？
If you watch kids play games like tag or hide-and-seek, there’s always one person who’s “it,” who’s hunting the other people, and if they catch you, you’re “it,” or you’re out, right?
看看孩子們玩的捉迷藏游戲，總有一個人扮演的是“它”，他在追捕其他人，如果他抓住了你，你就成為了“它”，否則你就出局了，對吧？
And so I think, you know, humans do this in, in all kinds of different ways, whether it’s through physical sort of rough-and-tumble play or through imaginative stories: through video games or movies or other kinds of storytelling.
所以我認為，人類以各種不同的方式去體驗恐懼，無論是通過肢體打鬧游戲，還是富有想象力的故事：通過電子游戲、電影或其他故事講述方式。
We engage in all kinds of scary scenarios when they’re relatively safe—and, often enjoy it.
在相對安全的情況下，我們會參與各種可怕的場景，而且常常樂在其中。
Yeah, and what do you think some of the sort of, I don’t know, evolutionary or personal benefits of that are?
是的，你認為這對進化或個人有什么好處？
Yeah, well, you know, if—in other animals, the benefits of something like predator inspection, where you’re actually watching the predator, is to learn about threats, right?
對其他動物來說，捕食者審視帶來的好處是，你在觀察捕食者，是為了了解它造成的威脅，對吧？
And I think that’s probably true in humans, maybe less so now that we have—you know, most of our scary play comes through fictional scenarios that may or may not ever exist.
或許這對人類來說也是如此，也許對人類來說沒那么強烈，我們大多數(shù)的恐怖游戲都是虛構(gòu)的場景，它們或許存在，或許永遠都不會成真。
But certainly, we can engage in scary play that mimics real-life scenarios.
但當然，我們可以參與模擬現(xiàn)實生活場景的恐怖游戲。
You know, we saw this, I would say, in 2020 with the pandemic. You had Contagion, which was, at that time, I think a nine-year-old movie ...
我想說，在2020年的大流行中，我們看到了這一點。還有《傳染病》，那應(yīng)該是九年前的一部電影……
That kind of fell into obscurity. I mean, it was kind of popular when it came out, but it quickly fell into obscurity, and then in March of 2020 it became (one of) the most-watched movie(s) in the world, you know, and I don’t think that’s a coincidence, right?
它好像銷聲匿跡了。我的意思是，它剛出來的時候很受歡迎，但很快就默默無聞了，然后在2020年3月，它成為了世界上最受歡迎的電影之一，這并不是巧合，對吧？
People were seeking out—in some ways, cognitively playing with—you know, what happens during a global pandemic, and the closest thing they could find to that was Contagion.
人們在尋找——在某種程度上，是用認知去玩的——在全球大流行期間會發(fā)生什么，他們能找到的最接近現(xiàn)實的影片就是《傳染病》。
