Let me begin with something General Eisenhower said in his 1952 presidential campaign. Quote, "We must achieve both security and solvency. In fact, the foundation of military strength is economic strength," end quote.

讓我以艾森豪威爾將軍在1952年總統競選時說過的一句話開始:“我們必須獲得安全和財務償還能力。事實上,軍事實力的基礎就是經濟實力。”

With that in mind, the first lead question.

在腦中記住這個,讓我們開始第一個引導問題。

Gentlemen, at this very moment tonight, where do you stand on the financial recovery plan?

先生們,在今晚這個特別的時刻,你們在金融拯救計劃中站在哪里?

First response to you, Senator Obama. You have two minutes.

第一個回答問題的是你,議員奧巴馬。你有兩分鐘時間。

OBAMA: Well, thank you very much, Jim, and thanks to the commission and the University of Mississippi, Ole Miss, for hosting us tonight. I can't think of a more important time for us to talk about the future of the country.

奧巴馬:好的,非常感謝你,吉姆,也感謝(總統競選辯論)委員會,感謝密西西比大學今晚容納我們。我無法想象我們還有比今晚討論這個國家的未來的更重要的時刻了。

You know, we are at a defining moment in our history. Our nation is involved in two wars, and we are going through the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

你們知道,我們現在正處于我們歷史上的一個決定性時刻。我們的民族被涉入兩場戰爭(注:伊拉克戰爭和阿富汗戰爭),而我們正在經歷自經濟大蕭條(注:1929年)以來最糟糕的金融危機。

And although we've heard a lot about Wall Street, those of you on Main Street I think have been struggling for a while, and you recognize that this could have an impact on all sectors of the economy.

盡管我們聽說了相當多關于華爾街的事情,但你們那些在城鎮主街上的人們(注:這里指美國城鎮和鄉村的典型居民)已經在(艱難地)努力了一段時間。你們都知道這(金融危機)也許會影響到經濟的方方面面。

And you're wondering, how's it going to affect me? How's it going to affect my job? How's it going to affect my house? How's it going to affect my retirement savings or my ability to send my children to college?

你們想要知道,它(金融危機)如何影響到我?如何影響到我的工作?如何影響到我的住宅?如何影響到我的退休金儲蓄或者是送我孩子上大學的能力?

So we have to move swiftly, and we have to move wisely. And I've put forward a series of proposals that make sure that we protect taxpayers as we engage in this important rescue effort.

所以我們必須得即刻就行動了,而且我們得要明智地行動。我已經提出一系列的建議,以確保當我們從事這項重要的(金融)拯救行動時,納稅人(的權益)得到保護。

Number one, we've got to make sure that we've got oversight over this whole process; $700 billion, potentially, is a lot of money.

首先,我們必須確保整個過程有仔細的監督。可能(被國會通過)的7000億美元是一筆相當大的數額。

Number two, we've got to make sure that taxpayers, when they are putting their money at risk, have the possibility of getting that money back and gains, if the market -- and when the market returns.

第二,我們必須確保納稅人現在冒著風險投入的錢有可能拿回來并增加,只要市場——且當市場回復(正常)時。

Number three, we've got to make sure that none of that money is going to pad CEO bank accounts or to promote golden parachutes.

第三,我們必須確保(這些錢)一分錢也不能變成CEO的銀行賬戶或者成為黃金保護傘(注:企業的高級管理層或離任的政府官員在失去他們原來的工作后,在經濟上給予其豐厚保障的安排)。

And, number four, we've got to make sure that we're helping homeowners, because the root problem here has to do with the foreclosures that are taking place all across the country.

第四,我們必須確保我們正在幫助住宅所有者,因為問題的根源與在這個國家到處都在發生的無力償付房貸有關。

Now, we also have to recognize that this is a final verdict on eight years of failed economic policies promoted by George Bush, supported by Senator McCain, a theory that basically says that we can shred regulations and consumer protections and give more and more to the most, and somehow prosperity will trickle down.

現在,我們也必須承認這(金融危機)就是對議員麥凱恩所支持的喬治.布什這八年來失敗的經濟政策的最終裁決。(他們的)一個理論主要宣稱的是我們可以撕碎(市場)管理和消費者保護,只要給予越來越多的(自由)直到極致,然后繁榮昌盛就會從天上掉下來。

It hasn't worked. And I think that the fundamentals of the economy have to be measured by whether or not the middle class is getting a fair shake. That's why I'm running for president, and that's what I hope we're going to be talking about tonight.

(他們的)理論根本沒有起過作用。而我認為經濟的基礎應該以中產階級是否能進行公平交易作為衡量標準。這就是為什么我在競選總統,這也是我所希望今晚我們將所討論的。

LEHRER: Senator McCain, two minutes.

主持人:麥凱恩議員,兩分鐘。

MCCAIN: Well, thank you, Jim. And thanks to everybody.

麥凱恩:好的,謝謝你,吉姆。謝謝所有人。

And I do have a sad note tonight. Senator Kennedy is in the hospital. He's a dear and beloved friend to all of us. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the lion of the Senate.

今晚我還有一個令人遺憾的消息:肯尼迪議員住院了。他是我們最親愛的一個朋友。讓我們向議會的雄獅表達掛念和祈禱。

I also want to thank the University of Mississippi for hosting us tonight.

我也要感謝今晚容納我們的密西西比大學。

And, Jim, I -- I've been not feeling too great about a lot of things lately. So have a lot of Americans who are facing challenges. But I'm feeling a little better tonight, and I'll tell you why.

而吉姆,我——我近來一直對很多事情感到不滿。許多面臨困難的美國人們也和我一樣。然而今晚我感覺稍微好些了,我會告訴你為什么。

Because as we're here tonight in this debate, we are seeing, for the first time in a long time, Republicans and Democrats together, sitting down, trying to work out a solution to this fiscal crisis that we're in.

這是因為我們在今晚這場辯論上,我們看到,這是相當長一段時間以來第一次共和黨人和民主黨人坐下來,嘗試作出一個我們所面臨的金融危機的解決方案。

(注:我認為麥凱恩此言,意在抨擊民主黨人的“不合作”。當然,這個“不合作”是由他所定義的。)

And have no doubt about the magnitude of this crisis. And we're not talking about failure of institutions on Wall Street. We're talking about failures on Main Street, and people who will lose their jobs, and their credits, and their homes, if we don't fix the greatest fiscal crisis, probably in -- certainly in our time, and I've been around a little while.

我們毫不懷疑這次危機的危害性。我們現在不是在討論華爾街那些機構的破產,我們是在討論城鎮主街上(那些人)的破產。如果我們不解決掉這次重大的財政危機,也許——不,毫無疑問地,在我們的有生之年,人們將失去他們的工作,他們的銀行存款和他們的家。(笑)我已經伴隨(金融危機)一段時間了。

But the point is -- the point is, we have finally seen Republicans and Democrats sitting down and negotiating together and coming up with a package.

但重點是——重點是,我們終于看到了,共和黨人和民主黨人坐下來一起磋商并將提出一系列方案(注:由于找不到中文對應于package的這個意思,只好用一系列方案來代替了)。

This package has transparency in it. It has to have accountability and oversight. It has to have options for loans to failing businesses, rather than the government taking over those loans. We have to -- it has to have a package with a number of other essential elements to it.

這些方案應該有透明性。它們應該可以落實責任和監管。它們應該包括轉讓衰退中的生意的債權,而不是讓政府直接接管這些債權。我們必須——不,這些方案還應當包括許多其他的必需元素。

And, yes, I went back to Washington, and I met with my Republicans in the House of Representatives. And they weren't part of the negotiations, and I understand that. And it was the House Republicans that decided that they would be part of the solution to this problem.

還有,我回了一趟華盛頓,并會見了眾議院的共和黨議員們。他們并沒有參與磋商,我理解。是共和黨議會決定,他們也將是解決這次(金融危機)問題的一部分。

But I want to emphasize one point to all Americans tonight. This isn't the beginning of the end of this crisis. This is the end of the beginning, if we come out with a package that will keep these institutions stable.

但今晚我想對所有的美國人強調一點。現在不是金融危機尾聲的序幕。即使我們拿出一系列解決方案使得那些(金融)機構穩定,現在也只是金融危機序幕的尾聲。

And we've got a lot of work to do. And we've got to create jobs. And one of the areas, of course, is to eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.

我們還有很多事情要做。我們得創造就業崗位。而創造就業崗位中一件(要做的)事情就是消除我們對外國石油的依賴。

(注:個人以為麥凱恩在最后幾句話里渲染金融危機的嚴重性,然后稍微透露一點“宏圖和前景”,企圖加強美國人對他的依賴感。很古老的招數,但政客們都在用。)

LEHRER: All right, let's go back to my question. How do you all stand on the recovery plan? And talk to each other about it. We've got five minutes. We can negotiate a deal right here.

主持人:好的,讓我們回到我的問題。你們兩位在經濟救援計劃中站在哪邊?直接告訴對方。我們還有5分鐘。我們現在就可以在這里商討出一個結果。

But, I mean, are you -- do you favor this plan, Senator Obama, and you, Senator McCain? Do you -- are you in favor of this plan?

我(先前的)意思是,你們支持這個(經濟救援)計劃嗎?奧巴馬議員,還有你,麥凱恩議員?你支持這個計劃嗎?

OBAMA: We haven't seen the language yet. And I do think that there's constructive work being done out there. So, for the viewers who are watching, I am optimistic about the capacity of us to come together with a plan.

奧巴馬:我們還沒有看到這個計劃。我認為在(國會)正在進行一項建設性的工作。所以,我想對觀眾們說,我對我們一起提出一項計劃的能力表示樂觀。

(注:奧巴馬這里回避了主持人的問題。他還是沒有說他究竟是支持還是不支持。他的回答是一個non-answer,我們稱為打太極、不表態。)

The question, I think, that we have to ask ourselves is, how did we get into this situation in the first place?

問題是,我在想,我們應該問問我們自己的是,我們是如何首次進入這種狀況的?

Two years ago, I warned that, because of the subprime lending mess, because of the lax regulation, that we were potentially going to have a problem and tried to stop some of the abuses in mortgages that were taking place at the time.

兩年前,我就警告過,由于次級貸款的混亂,由于松懈的管理,我們可能正在走向潛伏的問題。我還試圖阻止一些當時抵押的濫用。

Last year, I wrote to the secretary of the Treasury to make sure that he understood the magnitude of this problem and to call on him to bring all the stakeholders together to try to deal with it.

去年,我寫信給財政部長,以確信他意識到這個問題的嚴重性。我呼吁他召集投資人設法解決這個問題。

So -- so the question, I think, that we've got to ask ourselves is, yes, we've got to solve this problem short term. And we are going to have to intervene; there's no doubt about that.

所以,這個我們詢問自己的問題,我認為,我們應該在短期內解決金融問題。我們需要干涉了,不容懷疑。

But we're also going to have to look at, how is it that we shredded so many regulations? We did not set up a 21st-century regulatory framework to deal with these problems. And that in part has to do with an economic philosophy that says that regulation is always bad.

但我們也需要看看,是什么讓我們撕裂了那么多的(金融)管理?我們沒有設立一個21世紀的管理框架來處理這些問題。而這(金融危機)部分地與一種經濟理念有關。這種經濟理念說(金融)管理總是壞的。

(注:奧巴馬不但回避了問題,而且開始了強烈地對布什政府,以及支持布什政府的麥凱恩議員的抨擊,認為他們的觀念有問題。)

LEHRER: Are you going to vote for the plan, Senator McCain?

主持人:你會支持(金融拯救)計劃嗎,麥凱恩議員?

MCCAIN: I -- I hope so. And I...

麥凱恩:我——我希望是,而且我……

LEHRER: As a United States senator...

主持人:作為一位美國的議員……

MCCAIN: Sure.

麥凱恩:當然。

LEHRER: ... you're going to vote for the plan?

主持人:……你是說你會投票支持這個計劃?

MCCAIN: Sure. But -- but let me -- let me point out, I also warned about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and warned about corporate greed and excess, and CEO pay, and all that. A lot of us saw this train wreck coming.

麥凱恩:當然。但是——請讓我——讓我指出來,我同樣也警告過了聯邦抵押協會和聯邦房貸抵押機構,警告過了(金融)企業的貪婪和無度,還有CEO的(高)薪水,所有這些。我們很多人都看到了這火車即將來臨的失事。

(注:Fannie Mae = Federal National Mortgage Association, Freddie Mac = Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation)

But there's also the issue of responsibility. You've mentioned President Dwight David Eisenhower. President Eisenhower, on the night before the Normandy invasion, went into his room, and he wrote out two letters.

但這里同樣要考慮責任的問題。你(主持人)提到了總統德懷特.大衛.艾森豪威爾。艾森豪威爾總統在進攻諾曼底的前夜,走進他的房間,寫了兩封信。

One of them was a letter congratulating the great members of the military and allies that had conducted and succeeded in the greatest invasion in history, still to this day, and forever.

其中一封信是慶祝部隊和盟軍中的杰出成員成功地完成了歷史上最偉大的一次進攻,到現在,直到永遠。

And he wrote out another letter, and that was a letter of resignation from the United States Army for the failure of the landings at Normandy.

他還寫了另一封信。那是一封向美國軍方的辭職信。辭職的理由是諾曼底登陸的失敗。

Somehow we've lost that accountability. I've been heavily criticized because I called for the resignation of the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. We've got to start also holding people accountable, and we've got to reward people who succeed.

不知何故,我們的責任沒有落實。我一直飽受批評,因為我要求證券交易委員會的主席辭職。我們得讓人們(為自己的工作)負責,并獎勵那些(工作上)成功的人們。

But somehow in Washington today -- and I'm afraid on Wall Street -- greed is rewarded, excess is rewarded, and corruption -- or certainly failure to carry out our responsibility is rewarded.

然而,在今天的華盛頓——我恐怕華爾街也是,不知為何,貪婪得到獎勵,無度得到獎勵,而腐敗,或者無疑地說失職得到獎勵。

As president of the United States, people are going to be held accountable in my administration. And I promise you that that will happen.

(如果)我是美國總統,在我的管理下,人們將(為自己的工作)負責。我向你們保證那將實現。

LEHRER: Do you have something directly to say, Senator Obama, to Senator McCain about what he just said?

主持人:你有沒有一些對麥凱恩議員剛才所說的話直接要說的,奧巴馬議員?

OBAMA: Well, I think Senator McCain's absolutely right that we need more responsibility, but we need it not just when there's a crisis. I mean, we've had years in which the reigning economic ideology has been what's good for Wall Street, but not what's good for Main Street.

奧巴馬:嗯,我認為我們確實需要更多的責任(感),麥凱恩議員(在這點上)完全正確,但我們不應只在危機出現的時候才需要它(注:奧巴馬此言,已經在影射麥凱恩及執政的共和黨人在之前的不負責任,導致了現在的這場金融危機)。我指的是,在過去的數年時間里,占統治地位的經濟思想總是考慮什么對華爾街有利,而不是什么對城鎮大街(上的人們)有利。

And there are folks out there who've been struggling before this crisis took place. And that's why it's so important, as we solve this short-term problem, that we look at some of the underlying issues that have led to wages and incomes for ordinary Americans to go down, the -- a health care system that is broken, energy policies that are not working, because, you know, 10 days ago, John said that the fundamentals of the economy are sound.

而且,在(金融)危機發生之前,就有那么一些人在(辛苦地)掙扎了。這也是為什么我們在解決這個短期(金融)問題的時候,看看一些深層次的問題是如此重要。這些問題讓普通美國人的工資和收入下降,讓醫療系統破碎,讓能源政策失效。因為……你知道,10天前,約翰(麥凱恩)還在說經濟的根本還是健康的。

(注:奧巴馬在這句話的最后提到“因為……”時,停頓了一下,他其實真正想說的是“就是像麥凱恩這樣的共和黨人導致了現在的金融問題”,但他需要仔細斟酌措辭,不能說得太過,以免被對手抓住把柄。麥凱恩其實也有苦衷,10天前他還沒有意識到金融危機是如此迅速地展現在了所有人面前,他還以為那些華爾街的投資銀行可以撐一段時間。也因為他還需要支撐住他背后的共和黨,需要修飾共和黨的執政能力。這使得他不得不硬著頭皮說“經濟根本還是健康的”。不料到了今天辯論的時候,幾大投資銀行相繼破產或轉行,他所說過的話也就成了奧巴馬所攻擊的把柄。這其實和某些人說“照片是真的”有異曲同工之妙。下面就看麥凱恩如何拆招了。)

LEHRER: Say it directly to him.

主持人:直接向他(麥凱恩)說。

OBAMA: I do not think that they are.

奧巴馬:我不認為經濟的根本是健康的。

LEHRER: Say it directly to him.

主持人:直接向他(麥凱恩)說。

OBAMA: Well, the -- John, 10 days ago, you said that thefundamentals of the economy are sound. And...

奧巴馬:好的,約翰,10天前,你還在說經濟的根本還是健康的,而……

MCCAIN: Are you afraid I couldn't hear him?

麥凱恩:(笑對主持人)你擔心我聽不到他說話嗎?

(LAUGHTER)(笑聲)

LEHRER: I'm just determined to get you all to talk to eachother. I'm going to try.

主持人:我只是想要讓你們倆互相交流。我想試試(笑)。

OBAMA: The -- and I just fundamentally disagree. And unless we are holding ourselves accountable day in, day out, not just when there's a crisis for folks who have power and influence and can hire lobbyists, but for the nurse, the teacher, the police officer, who, frankly, at the end of each month, they've got a little financial crisis going on.

奧巴馬:而我根本就不同意這點。除非我們不論什么時候都讓我們(對我們的工作)負責,而不是在出現危機的時候。(這危機只是)讓某些有權力和影響力的人可以雇傭說客(而已),而坦白地說,對于護士、教師、警員,每個月的月末,都有著金融危機在上演(注:這里指房貸)。

They're having to take out extra debt just to make their mortgage payments. We haven't been paying attention to them. And if you look at our tax policies, it's a classic example.

他們必須拿出額外的錢來償還抵押貸款。我們一直沒有注意到他們。但你們如果看看我們的稅收政策,那就是一個典型的例子(注:指稅收和房貸一樣,都在抽取著普通美國人的收入)。

LEHRER: So, Senator McCain, do you agree with what Senator Obama just said? And, if you don't, tell him what you disagree with.

主持人:那么,麥凱恩議員,你同意奧巴馬議員剛才所說的嗎?如果你不同意,告訴他你不同意什么。

MCCAIN: No, I -- look, we've got to fix the system. We've got fundamental problems in the system. And Main Street is paying a penalty for the excesses and greed in Washington, D.C., and in the Wall Street.

麥凱恩:(我)不同意。我……你看,我們得修理(我們的金融)系統。這個系統的根本有些問題,而城鎮大街(上的人們)正在為華盛頓和華爾街的無度和貪婪付出代價。

So there's no doubt that we have a long way to go. And, obviously, stricter interpretation and consolidation of the various regulatory agencies that weren't doing their job, that has brought on this crisis.

所以,毫不懷疑,我們有很長的路要走。而且,很明顯地,對各種各樣沒有做好他們工作而導致了這場(金融)危機的管理機構(實行)更加嚴格的整理和合并。

(注:好個太極推手。麥凱恩接過奧巴馬的咄咄逼人的鋒頭,順勢將這股力打向了金融管理機構。須知麥凱恩競選的一個主要口號就是他要規整政府部門,改整機構。麥凱恩努力讓大家把注意力集中在金融機構的失職上,而不是執政的共和黨上,可謂用心良苦。然則美國老百姓也不是傻子。實事求是地說,這次金融危機,作為執政黨的共和黨確有較大責任。麥凱恩這一搗漿糊,看來很難糊弄過去。)

But I have a fundamental belief in the goodness and strength of the American worker. And the American worker is the most productive, the most innovative. America is still the greatest producer, exporter and importer.

但我心中深信美國勞動人民的善良和力量。而且美國勞動人民是富有生產力和創造力的(人民)。美國仍然是(世界上)最大的生產國、出口國和進口國。

(注:當政客甜言蜜語地夸獎老百姓的能力時,就是要讓老百姓做牛做馬的時候了。麥凱恩寄希望于美國人民努力工作,把金融危機的洞給填實嘍。這一招實在是失策啊!占人口大多數的美國工人不會吃這一套。而奧巴馬想要從大企業家和富翁身上剝層皮來填金融的大洞,顯然更能得到大多數美國人的歡心。從現在的支持率來看,也是如此。)

But we've got to get through these times, but I have a fundamental belief in the United States of America. And I still believe, under the right leadership, our best days are ahead of us.

但我們一定要熬過這段時間,我深信美利堅合眾國(能做到)。我還相信,在正確的領導下,幸福的生活就在我們前頭。