Naomi Wolf is author of "The Treehouse" and Caitlin Flanagan wrote "To Hell with All That: Loving and Loathing Our Inner Housewife". Ladies, good morning to both of you. (Good morning) Naomi, (morning) let me start with you, I mean, in a blatant attempt to be provocative on the part of this author or a little bit of truth?

Well, sure, there's a little bit of truth in that, un we are in a time of big change and about 20% of women do out-earn their husbands and this, you know, is a source of vulnerability and, and extreme emotions in, in people adjusting to change. But it's also kind of ridiculous because this piece, the same piece gets written every time women make a big leap forward. You saw the same essay in the 20s when women got to vote and in the 50s when women and early 60s when women were reading feminine mystic and it really is, um, a kind of one of these stir the pot and make everyone upsets of the pieces.

Well, stir the pot , but Caitlin, there are a lot of people who think that this author has put his finger on something that a lot of career woman, women in particular, probably think but don't wanna say out loud. What do you think?

Well, I think men and women are both waking up to the fact something that poorer people, working class people, have known for years, which is that when two people work, it's very hard to make home life work very well.
And I think that there's always a strand of elitism to this discussion. Two Wal-Mart jobs are a heck of a lot harder on the marriage than two jobs scaling the heights at the law firm. But I think that there's absolutely a sense that running a home takes a lot of time and that the women who have made a choice to stay home and do it understand that they are really creating something at a man's value, but the value...

Well, but when you look at divorce rates in this country, there are a lot of things that contribute to divorce rates, you've got race, religion. economics, family history. Where would you rank career women in that equation?

Well, I think, I think that the author, you are absolutely right, he was being as provocative as he possibly could. He was intentionally, said, using the term "career girl" instead of "career women", which is I am sure why Forbes pulled it off so quickly.

But I think that ultimately the notion that one career person marrying another ca, career person, regardless of gender, when two people with huge jobs get married, we all know that it takes a huge toll on their family life (I, I really need to make ) and I think that. . ( Caitlin, can I jump in? )(Go ahead, Naomi. )

I really need to point out (please do) that what the author is really saying if you tease apart his really inflammatory use of studies is that when women have choices, they make choices that they might not have been able to make in the time when they had no choices. I mean, he's saying things that he's acknowledging that when women do make money, they might leave someone who's alcoholic, they might leave someone who's verbally abusive, they might leave somebody who's physically abusive, and what he's not acknowledging and a rebuttal does acknowledge is, is that, um, if, what men really are learning is that they need to do things to make marriage last as well.

Well, there's also, there 's also whole aspect is to blame the woman and put no blame on the shoulders of the man. If, in fact, careers have an impact, a negative impact on marriage, then he's assuming that it is the woman who's to blame and not the man who perhaps is intimidated by the career woman.

And I wanna point something else out to Caitlin who, you know, with all due respect, has done some inflammatory stuff herself with the issue of a dual-career marriage, which is that we all know that, especially before the women's movement, women stayed home, and tended their lives and tended their children and gave up their careers and many of them found 20 years later that their husbands left them and married a trophy wife, anyway, and (Caitlin) they're hardly in a better position and if they had done the things they needed to do to look after themselves. (Caitlin, respond to that. )

Well, women have worked throughout time in America and there was a very small time in the 50s, and I think a lot of us hanker for that aspect of the past, when a man with a union job could support his family. I bet a lot of women right now who are getting dressed to go to work, aren't doing it to have glamorous jobs in law firms. I think they would much rather stay home with their children. I think that most women now, because of the economic changes in this country, have been forced into the, into the job market. They are not thrilled to be going to work, I bet there are a lot of women watching right now would say I'd love to put my purse down , I'd love to put my coat down, and I'd love to raise my child myself.

Caitlin of course you're absolute right, But, what, what I'm frustrated by is that you don't acknowledge that we in America don't have the same kinds of options for flexibility in the work-family life that they do in Europe, especially in northern Europe, in Canada, where after you have a baby you get a year off , your husband gets a year off, you get 60, 90% of your salary , and women, they are not stressing about work (Naomi,Naomi.)and family life And marriage aren't just stressed there as they're.....

Caitlin, last word, go ahead.

Naomi, look at France. Why did France blared over last summer? Because there's a whole lot of women, who are not white and not native-born French women who can't get in their job market. Europe is no picnic for the middle class and upper middle class family, if you are not a white native-born French person.

Ah, your, you're just completely wrong, but guess I have to leave it there.

And I promised her the last word but that's all right. Caitlin Flanagan again, thanks Naomi Wolf, thank you.

1. blatant:adj. You use blatant to describe something bad that is done in an open or very obvious way.

2. elitism:n. Elitism is the quality or practice of being elitist.精英主義

3. inflammatory:adj. If you accuse someone of saying or doing inflammatory things, you mean that what they say or do is likely to make people react very angrily. 激動的

4. rebuttal:n.If you make a rebuttal of a charge or accusation that has been made against you, you make a statement which gives reasons why the accusation is untrue. (FORMAL)辯駁, 舉反證

5. with all due respect:with all due honor, without any attempt to hurt (usually a token expression of respect that precedes a critical or not very flattering statement) 盡管對閣下尊敬之至

6. trophy wife:a wife who is an attractive young woman; seldom the first wife of an affluent older man; "his trophy wife was an asset to his business"